this guy is an asshat. whatever happened to separation of church and state? as a Christian i have no choice but to hope his resolution fails.
when religious leaders talk about the sad state of our country's dedication to religion, i stand up and take notice. when politicians do it, it scares the hell out of me.
healthcare is broken and we're fighting two wars. back to work, randy.
I think "separation of church and state" has been pretty wrecklessly used in the past, almost always to stonewall discussion. the fact is that this state was founded by the church, as the church is the body of Christ. obviously the whole body didn't create the declaration of independence but at least a few fingers did
and religious leaders talkin' politics doesn't bother me. personally I'd like our leaders, religious or political, to take stands for all convictions they carry and not allow any "correctness" to hinder them. personally I don't agree with almost all things tagged "correct"
Well, there's the difference. Religious leaders talking politics does bother me (because more often than not, it's in the form of a command from behind the pulpit).
Not sure i quite agree that the nation was "founded by the church"... the Declaration of Independence and Paine's Common Sense don't mention religion (or even religious oppression much). It's about recognizing a sense of free will and equality among men; a very Christian principle in its own right. So why the need to declare the US as a "Christian nation" or be offended when our president says we're not a Christian or Jewish nation (he also mentioned we're not a Muslim nation, but who wants to focus on that)?
We're not a "Christian nation" in the sense that Mideast countries are "Muslim nations". 'Cause boy, when they say they're Muslim nations, they MEAN it.
The point is not that political leaders shouldn't have convictions or strong religious beliefs. As a Christian I'd prefer for all of my political leaders to be Christian. I also want my doctor to be Christian. And my mechanic. And so forth.
The point is that it's counterproductive to use your political stature to introduce silly resolutions and tell anecdotes about prayers during historic moments to make America to be some sort of theocracy.
America was based on religious freedom which I think is key to having frank, open dialogues about religion and only then can we expose people to Christianity who may not have been subjected to it otherwise. Shoving the idea of America as a "Christian nation" down peoples' throats may make current believers feel good about their convictions, but it seems counterproductive to spreading the gospel.
question about commanding from behind the pulpit- is it okay to make absolute statements about sin? lifestyle? obedience to God?
I think it is a point worth discussing, especially from the pulpit. I don't want someone just telling me (for example) who to vote for, I'd rather they discuss the whole thing (taking ownership of all they say as their own personal conclusions/observations) because I feel too many times we unproductively compartmentalize (separation of church and state as a blanket statement) or thoughtlessly decree
founded by the church, the church being what it is- believers, not a particular building or even denomination (a la catholic vs. Catholic)
I agree that we're not a Christian nation in the sense that they are a Muslim nation but I think that is understood just as it could be said that they're not a Muslim nation in the sense that we're a Christian nation. after all a Christian nation by definition should stand for free will and equality, a Muslim nation would not because those are not Muslim principles.
as for Randy, I just thought it was interesting. deserving his moment if any other should hope to have theirs
i wrote a long comment to this and blogspot timed out and erased it. blah. here's the watered-down version.
Randy's passion is definitely to be admired but I'm a little skeptical about the idea of America being founded as a Christian nation (in the sense that the founding fathers were all devout and intended for all Americans to be the same). The concept of George Washington as a Christian is a fascinating topic, because some scholars have said that he was a Christian to the end while others say he was hardly a Deist. Surely there's some revisionist history going on, but who's doing it?
As far as politicking from the pulpit goes, there's nothing wrong with using scripture to perhaps enforce or rebut policy, but I think voting is something to be done prayerfully. I've been to a service where the lead pastor reminded us to vote against initiative X, and it bothered the hell out of me. Mostly because maybe I actually WANT to marry a dude. Just kidding.
I just don't want someone telling me that in order to be a Christian I have to vote a certain way. We may be lambs of God, but we're not sheep.
this guy is an asshat. whatever happened to separation of church and state? as a Christian i have no choice but to hope his resolution fails.
ReplyDeletewhen religious leaders talk about the sad state of our country's dedication to religion, i stand up and take notice. when politicians do it, it scares the hell out of me.
healthcare is broken and we're fighting two wars. back to work, randy.
I think "separation of church and state" has been pretty wrecklessly used in the past, almost always to stonewall discussion. the fact is that this state was founded by the church, as the church is the body of Christ. obviously the whole body didn't create the declaration of independence but at least a few fingers did
ReplyDeleteand religious leaders talkin' politics doesn't bother me. personally I'd like our leaders, religious or political, to take stands for all convictions they carry and not allow any "correctness" to hinder them. personally I don't agree with almost all things tagged "correct"
Well, there's the difference. Religious leaders talking politics does bother me (because more often than not, it's in the form of a command from behind the pulpit).
ReplyDeleteNot sure i quite agree that the nation was "founded by the church"... the Declaration of Independence and Paine's Common Sense don't mention religion (or even religious oppression much). It's about recognizing a sense of free will and equality among men; a very Christian principle in its own right. So why the need to declare the US as a "Christian nation" or be offended when our president says we're not a Christian or Jewish nation (he also mentioned we're not a Muslim nation, but who wants to focus on that)?
We're not a "Christian nation" in the sense that Mideast countries are "Muslim nations". 'Cause boy, when they say they're Muslim nations, they MEAN it.
The point is not that political leaders shouldn't have convictions or strong religious beliefs. As a Christian I'd prefer for all of my political leaders to be Christian. I also want my doctor to be Christian. And my mechanic. And so forth.
The point is that it's counterproductive to use your political stature to introduce silly resolutions and tell anecdotes about prayers during historic moments to make America to be some sort of theocracy.
America was based on religious freedom which I think is key to having frank, open dialogues about religion and only then can we expose people to Christianity who may not have been subjected to it otherwise. Shoving the idea of America as a "Christian nation" down peoples' throats may make current believers feel good about their convictions, but it seems counterproductive to spreading the gospel.
I'm just not buying what Randy is selling.
question about commanding from behind the pulpit- is it okay to make absolute statements about sin? lifestyle? obedience to God?
ReplyDeleteI think it is a point worth discussing, especially from the pulpit. I don't want someone just telling me (for example) who to vote for, I'd rather they discuss the whole thing (taking ownership of all they say as their own personal conclusions/observations) because I feel too many times we unproductively compartmentalize (separation of church and state as a blanket statement) or thoughtlessly decree
founded by the church, the church being what it is- believers, not a particular building or even denomination (a la catholic vs. Catholic)
I agree that we're not a Christian nation in the sense that they are a Muslim nation but I think that is understood just as it could be said that they're not a Muslim nation in the sense that we're a Christian nation. after all a Christian nation by definition should stand for free will and equality, a Muslim nation would not because those are not Muslim principles.
as for Randy, I just thought it was interesting. deserving his moment if any other should hope to have theirs
i wrote a long comment to this and blogspot timed out and erased it. blah. here's the watered-down version.
ReplyDeleteRandy's passion is definitely to be admired but I'm a little skeptical about the idea of America being founded as a Christian nation (in the sense that the founding fathers were all devout and intended for all Americans to be the same). The concept of George Washington as a Christian is a fascinating topic, because some scholars have said that he was a Christian to the end while others say he was hardly a Deist. Surely there's some revisionist history going on, but who's doing it?
As far as politicking from the pulpit goes, there's nothing wrong with using scripture to perhaps enforce or rebut policy, but I think voting is something to be done prayerfully. I've been to a service where the lead pastor reminded us to vote against initiative X, and it bothered the hell out of me. Mostly because maybe I actually WANT to marry a dude. Just kidding.
I just don't want someone telling me that in order to be a Christian I have to vote a certain way. We may be lambs of God, but we're not sheep.